22: 2021/10/08(金) 22:51:54.37 ID:A3oDH6ria
原典だとアブディエルって完全に単なる権威主義なんだよね
最初ルシファーについてったのも話も聞かずに偉いルシファーが何かやるって言うからついてっただけで
話聞いたら神に逆らうとか言うから理屈抜きで神の方が偉いんだからお前は間違ってるの一点張りで
これは神より偉い存在が出てきたら迷わずそっちにつくんだろうなっていう迷いとは無縁の盲目ぶりであった
最初ルシファーについてったのも話も聞かずに偉いルシファーが何かやるって言うからついてっただけで
話聞いたら神に逆らうとか言うから理屈抜きで神の方が偉いんだからお前は間違ってるの一点張りで
これは神より偉い存在が出てきたら迷わずそっちにつくんだろうなっていう迷いとは無縁の盲目ぶりであった
23: 2021/10/08(金) 22:58:48.26 ID:EL1TlAGD0
いや「創造主に作られた存在に過ぎないお前が創造主に勝てる訳がない」って理屈で異議を唱えた天使では
24: 2021/10/08(金) 22:59:37.89 ID:FYKKpBeD0
つまり創造主を倒したら仲魔になるんだな
26: 2021/10/08(金) 23:11:33.05 ID:A3oDH6ria
ルシファーが「今のままあいつの言いなりでいいのかよ！創造主だからってやってみなきゃ分かんないよ！
みんな協力して勝ちに行こうぜ！！」って色々熱弁を振るって必死でみんなを説得したのに
あいつだけ「いや創造主だから偉いんだからって」ってそればっかりで全く議論が成立しないっていうか話にならないんだよ
盲目的ゆえに誘惑を逃れたという感じで
みんな協力して勝ちに行こうぜ！！」って色々熱弁を振るって必死でみんなを説得したのに
あいつだけ「いや創造主だから偉いんだからって」ってそればっかりで全く議論が成立しないっていうか話にならないんだよ
盲目的ゆえに誘惑を逃れたという感じで
28: 2021/10/08(金) 23:15:14.66 ID:EL1TlAGD0
>>26
それはかなりルシファー贔屓というかロウ嫌い入った読み方じゃないか
まあ失楽園自体がそういうとこあるけど
それはかなりルシファー贔屓というかロウ嫌い入った読み方じゃないか
まあ失楽園自体がそういうとこあるけど
36: 2021/10/08(金) 23:39:19.95 ID:A3oDH6ria
>>28
それについては否定しない
失楽園はルシファーの肩持って書いてある
一方でアブディエルの信仰と服従も悪くは書いてない
それについては否定しない
失楽園はルシファーの肩持って書いてある
一方でアブディエルの信仰と服従も悪くは書いてない
ともかく私にはあれは「なぜ服従するか、主が偉いからだ」の権威主義代表選手に映った
作中で自由意思による信仰こそが真の信仰だって何回も言ってるからその辺も加味しつつ
真５のアブディエルは自由意思に目覚めるとかそんなんかね
29: 2021/10/08(金) 23:19:13.85 ID:lunYO5o60
アブディエルは天使勢の中でも盲目的では無い方だろ、一度離反しているし
一度離れて堕天使達の言い分を聴いた上で四文字の支配の正統性を自分で結論付けて再び神の元に戻ったロジカルな信奉者だぞ
一度離れて堕天使達の言い分を聴いた上で四文字の支配の正統性を自分で結論付けて再び神の元に戻ったロジカルな信奉者だぞ
41: 2021/10/09(土) 00:11:57.57 ID:DOilQI0Y0
ミルトンが何故アブディエルっていう創作天使を登場させたかって自分の意見を代弁させたかったからだと思うわ
周り全部敵でも主への忠節を枉げないってのもそうだろうし
なんでサタン（ルシファー）の集会に参加したのかは謎だけどついていったとは書いてないから集会の山の近場がアブディエルの持ち場だったんじゃないの？
知らんけど
周り全部敵でも主への忠節を枉げないってのもそうだろうし
なんでサタン（ルシファー）の集会に参加したのかは謎だけどついていったとは書いてないから集会の山の近場がアブディエルの持ち場だったんじゃないの？
知らんけど
42: 2021/10/09(土) 00:17:35.69 ID:DOilQI0Y0
サタン（ルシファー）は反逆の意は隠して指揮下の全軍を集会の山に呼んだとあった
じゃあアブディエルがのこのこついて行っても落ち度はないな
じゃあアブディエルがのこのこついて行っても落ち度はないな
149: 2021/10/09(土) 21:22:27.44 ID:ptl3R7os0
>>147
そもそもゲームに出たからって文句言うようなバカはまずいねぇよ
キリスト教圏だってイエス様がブン殴り合いするゲームあったり、ジャンヌ・ダルクがレ×××クスするA×あったりするし
ラジャンのオッサンは頭おかしいっていうか、あの人本当はヒンドゥーの事よく知らないヒンドゥーエアプ系ヒンドゥー指導者だから狂犬みたく噛み付いてきてるだけだし
そもそもゲームに出たからって文句言うようなバカはまずいねぇよ
キリスト教圏だってイエス様がブン殴り合いするゲームあったり、ジャンヌ・ダルクがレ×××クスするA×あったりするし
ラジャンのオッサンは頭おかしいっていうか、あの人本当はヒンドゥーの事よく知らないヒンドゥーエアプ系ヒンドゥー指導者だから狂犬みたく噛み付いてきてるだけだし
148: 2021/10/09(土) 21:05:42.11 ID:8Pmq8Buud
今作のどこかに失楽園のモチーフやコンセプトが
盛り込まれてる部分が大きい、かも知れない
盛り込まれてる部分が大きい、かも知れない
主要テーマが全く違う話で大きく扱うのは難しそう
317: 2021/10/10(日) 20:12:27.99 ID:xxljX9MA01010
アブさんってルシファー堕天使組の仲間だったけど
土壇場でさらに離反した天使なんだ
×ロい妄想してしまうなぁ
土壇場でさらに離反した天使なんだ
×ロい妄想してしまうなぁ
318: 2021/10/10(日) 20:14:29.92 ID:zeHZ03ZLa1010
くっ…×せっ…
147: 2021/10/09(土) 20:57:06.29 ID:P6q/xABO0
アブディエルみたいに、リアル信者のいる宗教関係だけど、
その聖典ではなく、二次創作出身・信仰対象外である存在ってのは
どう扱おうが批判出にくいから、今後も重用されるかもな
その聖典ではなく、二次創作出身・信仰対象外である存在ってのは
どう扱おうが批判出にくいから、今後も重用されるかもな
引用元:https://rosie.5ch.net/test/read.cgi/gamerpg/1633679096/
アブディエル
アブディエル（Abdiel、ヘブライ語:עֲבְדִּיאֵל）とは、『歴代誌』に記されている人名。ジョン・ミルトンは『失楽園』において、天使の名として採用している。
天上界の戦争時にサタン（ルシファー）の仲間の天使群の中で、神に反乱を起こすことに唯一反し、それを拒絶した天使。
神を打ち倒し、自由を取り戻すため、先ず自分の仲間の天使たちに説得を図ったルシファー（サタン）は、神への忠実な奉仕と忠誠行為は屈辱的な従属であると述べ、従属状態である天使達に共に自由を得るために立ち上がることを説いた。
しかし、天使アブディエルは説得に反意を唱える。
このときアブディエル自身は、サタンも神によって創造されたのだから、創造主である神よりその力は劣るに相違ないとも発した。
そして、サタンの、自分は被造物でないからその様な事は無い、といった反論意見に、結局アブディエルは耳を貸さなかった。
後、神に立ち向かい悪魔になる天使群の側から身を外し、自ら神の元へ飛び去っていった。
引用：Wikipedia
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